Answering Limit Hold 'Em (LHE) Questions
I've noticed there are a lot of relatively new players here, and the forum is (understandably) very NLH-centric. I'm a longtime winning mid/high-stakes LHE player (think 20/40 through 60/120), so I thought I'd offer to answer any questions from the LHE or LHE-interested players here. I'm happy to address questions/criticism of LHE from anyone, but I'd appreciate not getting downvoted just because you don't like the game. Trying to be helpful to those who might be interested. – BerryGreenstien
— Have you ever thought about trying "excitement?" All the cool kids are doing it.
"I don't really play for excitement, but there's plenty of exciting spots in LHE. Sure, it's not the excitement of a huge all-in bluff or making a huge hero call, but it's pretty exciting to drag in a monster multiway pot, perhaps after nailing a river or fading some cards on the turn/river. Triple barrel bluffs can be exciting. Calling someone down with like K or Q high on three streets can be exciting.
And what I don't find exciting is sitting around for 5 minutes while I wait for a hand of NLH to finish. Not hating on NL, but I find it to be hours of boredom punctuated by brief moments of excitement."
— Who’s the best LHE player ever and why is it Matt Hawrilenko?
"He's good. The best LHE players are purely cash game players you've probably never heard of unless you were active on 2p2 back when the limit forums were more lively, some of whom never even posted there."
Matt Hawrilenko— I don't play as much limit as I used to, but the first time I went into a card room was after reading Sklanskys Small Stakes Hold em, which is a book explaining how to beat low stakes Limit Hold'em games. I'll just mention for anyone interested that that book is in my opinion the best book to give to any beginning poker player who wants to make money right away. The concepts and math are fairly easy to understand (at least compared to many no limit concepts), and if you follow the key concepts in the book you can be a winning limit player right away, at least at lower stakes.
My question for OP is, what are the biggest differences between lower and higher stakes limit games? I've mainly played 4-8, and never higher than 10-20. I'm assuming the games are tighter and more aggressive as you go up in stakes, but are there any more nuanced differences?
"Agree SSNL is a good book. It's dated, but used to essentially be the bible for beating games up through like 8/16 or 10/20. As to your question, with the caveat that it really depends on the game, I don't think the bigger games are necessarily tighter, but they're definitely more aggressive. Even the worse players will 3-bet preflop, and will generally be more aggressive post-flop. That's not to say that there aren't people with overly passive tendencies, it's just not as passive. I'd say that people in bigger games are also much more showdown bound. Like, it's pretty uncommon to get called down by like ace or king high by someone in a low stakes game, but it happens with some frequency in bigger games.
In a nutshell, smaller games play a bit more like everyone trying to hit their lottery ticket: they'll check and call or maybe bet and then call a raise trying to hit a big hand. As you move up in stakes, people fight over the pot a lot more aggressively. And, the pots are less multiway."
— What do you think the main skills which are more important for LHE than NLHE are?
Read"Overall, I think limit rewards making consistently good decisions at every stage in a hand. In NL, making one good or bad decision for a very large bet can make or break your session, or more big picture, having a leak in how you handle big spots is going to have a huge impact on your overall profitability. In limit, you can't really compensate for leaks in your game elsewhere because you're just never going to stack someone.
I see limit as being more "tactical," in the sense that the game is very much about winning or saving one or two more bets where a worse player in your spot wouldn't do so. So, finding that raise or check-raise that someone else might not, or finding that fold on the river when getting laid 12:1 that nobody else can make.
On balance, you play a lot more turn and river spots, and when you're there, there's a lot more room for multiple raises because in NL a turn or river bet or raise is likely all in, unless you are playing very deep. So, I think you generally have a bigger game tree that you need to be comfortable dealing with than in NL in that sense (I think bet sizing makes the NL game tree bigger overall).
You also tend to play more multiway pots. Now, in theory, this shouldn't really be true, but in practice, I think you see a lot more cold-calling in limit games than in NL games, so a lot more pots go off multiway. Multiway pots throw off any solver work and create a lot of tricky situations.
Edited to add that I think you also end up playing pots with wider ranges, on balance, so you need to be decent at dealing with those."'
— Does the limit aspect mean maneuvering a hand more like a PLO player would? In that a lot of leaks are nutted potential vs non nutted and structuring aggression properly rather than just blasting off since equity advantages aren't so steep?
Feels like the conventional advice that I've seen is that for people not so confident in their postflop navigation it's counterintuitively even more important to tighten up preflop since they can run into reverse implied odds so often.
"PLO still has very big bets on later streets, so we are very concerned about nutted hands because (a) in general, nutted hands are more likely in PLO because it's a 4-card game; and (b) we're dealing with very large bets on later streets so the cost of having a second-best hand is very, very steep.
By comparison, in LHE, when you have a second-best hand, there's a cap on how much you're going to lose. In some casinos, there is no betting cap when the pot is heads up, so in theory, you could go back and forth raising one another until someone is all in, but generally the second nuts will stop at 3 or 4 bets.
So, as compared to NL or PLO, I'd say it's actually the opposite: you are encouraged to be much more aggressive with hands of moderate, or even weak, strength, because you won't get punished as much, and because of the large pot odds being offered to other players, you can and should get called by even weaker hands. For example, in limit, you might bet ace high for value on all three streets (in certain situations). You don't need to worry at all about pot control."
— Wow, okay. Interesting to hear I'm way off. Seems maniacal, although I guess it rewards a player that's happy to go for thin value but also is sharp enough to fold when reasonable.
"Yep. Don't get me wrong, there's spots where it is correct to play passively, even heads up, and multiway pots are a whole other ball of wax, but thin value is the name of the game in LHE, and it is part of what makes it a lot of fun. That, and live NL moves at such a glacial pace, whereas LHE games are played very quickly, and you can play a bit looser (I'm not familiar with solved NL ranges, but I assume this is true).
If you want a sense of just how maniacal optimal LHE play can be, spend some time playing against Cepheus Cepheus Poker Project. It uses a solved HU strategy, and makes what might seem to be some crazy light call downs and raises."
— Is there any limit game online or at casinos ?
"I'm in the U.S., so I can't speak to casinos overseas or non-U.S.-facing sites. I think across much of the U.S., limit games are limited to a pretty small game (like 3/6 limit) being offered. Certain markets have a lot of limit games, or almost exclusively limit games due to state law. California, Arizona, Minnesota, and the Northeast all still have a good amount of LHE. And Bellagio in Vegas spreads 20/40 and up every day. There's some limit played around Chicagoland, too.
ACR and Ignition both spread limit games (Editor – Phenom Poker as well), but I think the games are somewhat sporadic."
— Your base of knowledge is very impressive, almost enough to make me wonder if this is Barry instead of Berry. You're spot on the money, for Minnesota at least.
The big game at Canterbury Park is 50/100 Limit Hold'em game. The closest to no-limit cash games that we have is a 2/100 spread limit (1/2 with a capped max bet of $100 per bet or raise).
I have heard that the 5/100 spread limit Omaha game at Running Aces is insane, though.
"I sometimes joke that I've been the youngest player in my games for 15 years. I'm in my mid-30s, and there aren't a ton of players younger than me. I think in part this is because in the post-boom era there just aren't a ton of young people getting into poker, and those that do naturally filter into NL. Another big part is that there isn't a very viable way to ladder into bigger LHE games. A lot of people my age pre-Black Friday could play readily available, soft LHE games online, and build a bankroll. Low-stakes LHE games are a rake trap, and in some markets there might be nothing between 3/6 and 20/40. And in today's economy, it can be challenging for someone to be able to afford to just hop into a game where the average buy in is $1,500+.
The games are not easier than pre 2008, but they're not THAT much harder live. What remains of online LHE has got to be awful. But you'd be surprised at how much live players just don't improve over time. I play against the same people who've been playing for years and they don't study, they don't get much better. I mean, they develop some things thorough osmosis, but I think your typical 10/20 NL game is much tougher than your typical 40/80 LHE game. Big limit games tend to be more wealthy rec heavy than big NL games, so you're not exactly up against many people tinkering with solvers.
Somehow I fell into LHE when I was 18 playing online, and it was more available than NL where I went to college, so it's always been my best game. I did play some NL for a while, but felt the LHE games were just more profitable for me. I don't play full time anymore, so it doesn't seem worthwhile to invest the time to become as proficient in new games as I am as LHE, at least so long as good games are still around. For example, I find mixed games to be a lot of fun, but I just don't have the time to get good enough at the mix to have the same edge I have at LHE."
— Thanks for the LHE info. I was a strictly LHE back pre-2008 both online and live when NL was rarer. I never got comfortable with NL, and I much prefer the rhythm of LHE. I haven't played in so long, but there is a room nearby that spreads 4-8 so I should try it for old time's sake since reading your post.
"I hope you have fun. Keep in mind that 4/8 is probably a rake trap, so it has to be something that is fun rather than a money-making venture. So, the player pool is going to matter a lot, I think. If you want to try to maximize your hourly, you probably need to play a bit tighter than optimal because the rake is going to make your weakest hands that are already marginal in terms of EV dip into the negative. And, assuming there is a rake drop as soon as there is a flop, chop the blinds. If your room has some decent promos, that could help offset the rake."
— How do you find skill level at tournaments LHE vs NL? live/online Is online cash just botted out? Wasn't the game "solved" earlier?
"LHE tournaments basically do not exist anymore outside of WSOP. The WSOP $1,500 LHE is quite soft. The $3,000 6-max a bit tougher, and the $10,000 LHE isn't exactly a soft field, but it does have a lot of people who are bracelet hunting and not LHE experts. If there's a random series like at Commerce that includes a limit tournament or two, the field will be soft. Certainly softer than NL tournaments of equivalent stakes, I think.
The game is solved heads up post-flop, and just like NL, there's solved preflop opening ranges. Multiway isn't solved, at least not in commercially available software.
I don't think that online cash is botted out, but it's certainly tough. Some of the guys that are just trying to play HU might be using some kind of real time assist."
— Lets say I was a NL 2/5 reg, and i stumbled upon a table of droolers playing 20/40 limit. I want to play vs them.
Lets say I'm used to playing a TAG style typically, that can morph into LAG when optimal.
- Should I aim to be aggressive?
- How important is position; is it everything?
- Can I fold 85%+ of my range UTG and be OK?
- What's my optimal button open VPIP?
- Does limping have its merits?
- Can I run triple barrel bluffs often with Air Vs. the correct players?
"A lot to unpack here and much of it is situational. I think you can player looser than NLH, but I've never seen solved NL ranges, so it's hard for me to say authoritatively. Your UTG and button percentages are about right, but 33% is way too tight, I'd go with 40%, although erring a little tighter if the game is raked and/or if you're new to the game can't be bad. Do not limp first in, including in the SB.
I wouldn't really adjust opening ranges if the table is no longer droolers. You could exploitatively open lighter than the above against droolers, but if you're new to LHE you probably don't want to do that. You could tighten up and most players won't really do much except maybe 3b you less, so long as you're not playing weakly and folding too much post.
You don't see a lot of bluffs with air in LHE. Your bluffs are usually hands with some kind of draw (even if a backdoor draw) or with some kind of high card that might win if it makes a pair. But yes, it is not uncommon to triple barrel bluff. Because your river bet size is small relative to the pot, it doesn't need to win that often to be profitable, and when you find yourself on the river with a semibluff that missed, betting is often your only chance to win the hand. Deciding when your bet will just never work, or on the other hand, deciding what to bluffcatch with, is part of the art on the river."
— Do you chase games around the country/world/online or just have good games in your local area? Or online?
How many hands/hr you getting at live LHE.
What percent of the player pool is winning in your estimate? Are these games built around a few whales or just a big pool of small donators?
"Other than trips to Vegas during the series, I stay local. I'd guess about 40 hands per hour – LHE is much faster than NL, and the bigger games play quite quickly. Can get more hands in with a fast dealer or playing short handed, less with a slow dealer or if there's a ton of action creating big, multiway pots.
I'd say the bigger games tend to be built around whales and/or a smaller group of bigger losers, whereas mid-stakes games tend to be a larger group of smaller donators. I think in your typical 20/40 game, maybe 10-15% win or break even after rake/time. I think the plurality comprises small losers, and then the tail end has people who lose like >1.5BB/hour."
— Thank you for doing this. I have some pretty juicy limit games right next to my house 40/80+, if you were a no limit player and learning limit today, what would you study?
"I'd start with dialing in preflop ranges and studying various flop textures in a solver. That's the foundation of any winning strategy. Probably worth reading the books I mentioned elsewhere ITT just for some basic heuristics that are helpful, so long as you don't get tied to them."
— Where are you finding games that big? Do you run into issues with too few games running?
"CA, AZ, MN, and Vegas all have 20/40 and up. Where I play, there’s no issue with game availability. You don’t have much by way of game selection, but it runs every day."
— Is it okay to open raise like I normally would in NLHE when the table is full of OMCs who are just limping all day every Sunday?
I don’t want to make them mad if I want to play with them regularly because I’m a rec and it’s a fun game for me. But all the limping is killing me in principle. I have already caught heat from some regs at the nugget for playing too strategically when they all wanted to sit and call down. Would hate to do that again simply by refusing to limp when that seems to be the culture at 3/6.
"Setting aside the metagame aspect, you should not be open limping. Once there are limps behind you it may make sense to start limping with some hands instead of raising, especially hands that are relying on fold equity to make opening with them profitable.
As to whether it is "okay" to open raise when players are getting mad at you for it, I can't really answer that other than to say I do not think it is bad etiquette to play how you want to just because it might upset other players at the table. That's their problem. Now, if you think it might break the game, you have to weigh how much you care. You also might gain some non-monetary value from not being persona non grata.
Overall, I would say that it is very hard if not impossible to beat the rake at 3/6, and if you never open raise you're going to make it even worse, so if your options are to play 3/6 where everyone is just limping and playing poker like the lotto, or not play 3/6 at all, you're probably better of just not playing."
— What is the longest downswing you've had playing live through the years? How's you LHE heads up game?
"I’ve been pretty fortunate in that I’ve never gone on a sustained downswing live that lasted more than a couple weeks.
My heads up game is ok. Like, I’d play pretty much any live (not online) player that’s not some end boss heads up and feel good about it. But I’d likely get creamed by HU experts online."
— What’s the lowest suited connecter you call 2 bets cold, 3 bets cold in late position? 9-handed.
"So, unlike in NL where there is some cold calling (as I understand it), there is very little cold calling outside of the blinds in LHE if you're next in after a preflop raise. It's one of those things that allows you to pretty quickly identify someone with a flawed preflop strategy. Depending on whether you're in the button or the cutoff, and depending on the tendencies of the opener and the blinds, you want to be thinking in the range of JTs-T9s as your worst 3-betting suited connector. And for a cold 4-bet, it's gotta be better than even that. Limit is all about big pairs and big, suited cards."
— Is it worth it to get into LHE (you mentioned more wealthy old people) or NLH still better for profits?
"NL has much better game availability and is going to outlive LHE I presume, so it's a much better investment of your time. If you lived somewhere with regular mid/high stakes LHE games, I'd say it's worth getting proficient at so you could sit in those games, but I wouldn't go out of my way to learn it in 2023. Which I view as kind of sad, because I think limit games are much better for casino ecosystems than NL, where fish lose their money way too quickly."