On October 3rd, 2+2 user FernandoCosta started a thread called "Out of the Top 6 Winners at GGPoker 200NL 4, Are the Same Bot."
I made this post at Reddit. I will put here as well. If everyone that plays on gg can help and send an email to GGPoker support complaining about bots it would help.
the bots are getting insane good at this point, they are now playing with many different kinds of bot profiles, there are 3 bot profiles that I saw more than one and are unique, and there are some bots that I'm not sure exactly their style, but I'm 100% sure they are bots.
These are the accounts currently playing that I know of :
Type 1: 13Stramina13, 996Gambler, frukywka, LetMeLoveYou, Kharaa7, KevalNA (most dangerous one, extremelly balanced in everything, and even play for leaderboards, very high volume)
Type 2: Serpanika (new bot that plays limping using opponent data and exploiting the pool accordingly)
Type 3: Oltarian (there where many of those before, after my report some got banned, but for some reason, this account didn't get banned)
Indefinite Types: begMekot , TaraRaiser , Jeniamo , GalizianStyle , BaniiLaBaiatu , leatherbutt (unique styles but all have the "bot stuff").
How Do I Know These Accounts are Bots?
I studied these bots for many years, they all have many things in common that I will not disclose here for obvious reasons, but I will send to GG the ways to detect. But the bots with "same profile", have close to identical stats, but all of then have many things in common, and they don't play just on GG, they play on many different sites, ACR, iPoker, Ignition etc..., all these bots have something in common, they exploit player pool tendencies.
I'm not sure how exactly they are created, but, what they do is basically a mix of exploiting the player pool + some kind of GTO balance, lets say there is a board, or a sizing, or a sequence of plays that leads into the average player pool to fold too much, they will exploit that, but, they wont bet 100% of the time in an overfolded spot, they will use GTO and only bet with the hands that have the highest EV, like when you use A2-A5, 45-67 to 3bet bluff, these are one of the best hands to bluff 3bet, but, GTO don't 3bet then 100% of the time, so, if player pool folds too much to 3bet, they would 3bet more with the best hands to 3bet in order to get the highest EV possible without going crazy doing it with any-two, but ofc, they don't just do these kind of simple things, they do things way more complicated, like, doing something preflop, because at the turn or river, after they did that thing preflop, things will get in a way they can profit, for example : limping preflop or changing the sizes of open raises or 3bet, so, its something so complex that no human can beat no matter what basically, the previous bots had many weaknesses, but these new ones are insane balanced, very close to GTO levels, and always with the right hands.
My opinion of what's happening is, these bots are indetectable by things like: click patterns, timing etc..., they probably play just like a human in this way, and probably GG only uses this kind of method to detect then. But the GG staff must learn how to detect then in different ways, which I already explained via email, but I'm 100% sure they didn't use it.
So, here I am again trying to get some awareness about this. I really like GG. I think the site is the best right now, but, we are paying 12bb/100 rake at 100nl. Its ok, you can charge more rake, but, the minimum they should do is hire people to make the site safe from bots. I'm 100% sure there is not a single person that wakes up and thinks "How can I detect more bots today?" at GG.
I don't even work at GG, I don't have access to all the data they have, and I easily spotted 14 accounts. Imagine how many there are, specially at rush n cash that I don't know because I don't play there, just from these 14 accounts, they are probably playing at least 1 million hands a month and crushing the games by at least 10bb/100 with rakeback, leaderboards etc. My guess is that there are making anywhere from $100-$300k per month from reg tables, and probably even more at Rush & Cash.
Original Post: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/out-top-6-winners-ggpoker-200nl-4-same-bot-1851812/
After the first post was up, FernandoCosta replied to many who agreed, and disagreed with his findings.
Slugant: "I have seen bot farms uncovered before and it was mainly done by looking at their public profile and seeing that stats were so similar it had to be the same. Their mining-sites profiles were posted so everyone could see for themselves that these players were in fact bots. Why do you not want to show it for these suspected bots? Especially since you do name them and say the have the same "profile."
I guess people with GG subscription on mining-sites can check for themselves if these profiles do indeed match in a way that's extraordinary. If someone wants to, please do.
There are certain things I also don't get in relation to them being 100% bots which I hope you can clear up...
Are you saying them 3betting A2-A5, 45-67 fully in a high Ft3b population is a sign of then botting? Because I do the same and I think many players exploit population by deviating from a GTO base strategy by increasing frequency of the non-exclusive hands. The way you describe these behaving as "what they do is basically a mix of exploiting the player pool + some kind of GTO balance" is likely true for all mid-stakes winning actual players as well.
How do you get to the conclusion that there are 3 "bot types" and there are undefined bots who all have unique styles but similar "bot stuff?" (which I love to see defined). This doesn't really sound that 100%.
And regarding type 1 bots. How can 1 bot be the most dangerous one and be more balanced than others? Its the same type of bot and programmed the same right?
And these bots also play ignition, ACR & iPoker, I read. Do they have the nicknames there, and if not, how do you know its the same bot? You have emailed GG about this but since the bots are also active on other sites, have you emailed them as well? And how did they reply?
I am sure botting goes on in poker and not try to deny that, but TBH this does sound a bit made up. Bot type & undefined bot type could very well be player type and undefined player type and I don't think just saying these are 100% bots is enough. But i will follow close."
I did check out the SN profiles of these players:
Frukywka played 10k hands at 10PLO 2 years ago and these days plays both mid-stakes PLO & Hold'em both 6max and HU but not hasn't been online in 2 weeks. Nothing about this player profile seems botty and he played pretty much every small & mid stakes PLO & Hold'em, from HU to FR, nothing like a bot would do.
And it certainly doesn't match anything with KevalNA (who only played 100&200 6m&hu Hold'em even though they are the same "bot type".
In fact between all of them there are a lot of differences, even if they are the same "bot type". I am not convinced, what is "bot stuff", what is the "same profile" and how did you reach your 100% sure? Because from what I'd see I would be betting very strong on Frukywka not being a bot.
FernandoCosta: "It feels like you know about the bots and everything, you know how the bots works, but those new ones indeed are not like the old ones, they are getting close to perfect now, what they did was that they got most of the flaws they had before and got better, like u said, instead of getting fresh accounts, now they play different stuff and let the account there for a while to then start with the bot playing, also, since u have this info, you know how to do what i will say right now : get those players of type 1 stats and look how close they are, its 1-2% difference, their avg is super close, before indeed the bots had identical stats, but they started to change so people don't notice it so quickly, but try for yourself, if you play poker, get your own stats, and see if there are 5 other accounts with insane close stats, like 1-2% difference, there wont be a single one, much less 5 others.
Yes, I have sent GGPoker an email, this time and many times before. I explained all my knowledge about the bots and how specifically i can detect then, and they got better, like i said, now instead of fresh accounts they play a little bit of other things to not get obvious, which was one of the ways we could use as a red flag.
"How do i get to the conclusion there are 3 types" : basically its because i saw other close to identical ones, like oltarian had many other "oltarians" before, but they got banned, type 1 like i said all of those accounts are super close stats, and Serpanika has a billion reasons that are obvious that he is a bot, but i will not explain here because its a way for me to identify then right now.
So, I know you have the means to get all the information I'm saying, just go there and look then comeback here and say if im wrong.
Are you saying that each of these accounts earns between 25k and 75k per month on NL100-200?
"No, I don't know the exact amounts, but it's simple math. This gang uses at least 14 accounts, all showing 10bb/100 with rakeback, and averaging 100,000 hands per month, meaning they earn $210,000 per month. In the first post, I wrote 100-300,000, but I'm sure the real figure is even higher. Fast tables are impossible to track, and the volume there is much higher. I'd guess the real profit could be as high as $500,000 per month."
"Are you saying them 3betting A2-A5, 45-67 fully in a high Ft3b population is a sign of then botting?"
Also, i never said that, i was trying to explain for a person that doesnt know how a bot works, i even said right after explaining that the bot does something like that, but in a waaaaay more complex way, its like this exploit but with more complex things like doing something preflop to impact into certain boards at turn and river, literally just read what i said after that "but ofc, they dont just do these kind of simple things, they do things way more complicated, like, doing something preflop, because at the turn or river, after they did that thing preflop, things will get in a way they can profit, for example : limping preflop or changing the sizes of open raises or 3bet, so, its something so complex that no human can beat no matter what basically, the previous bots had many weaknesses, but these new ones are insane balanced, very close to GTO levels, and always with the right hands."
Jientara: "I haven't studied the game of the nicknames mentioned, but Serpanika clearly has something wrong; I don't know if he's a bot or a superuser.
Unfortunately, GG doesn't take the necessary action. I've reported some players for RTA, and the site has never banned them. As someone wrote here, they simply send an email saying they'll investigate, but nothing happens.
Example: the last player I reported, who continues to play:
FernandoCosta opened a thread on Reddit in the official GGPoker thread, but has yet to receive a response from the room's representatives.
"Every week, new nicknames appear at the regular tables. I won't even list them here, because it takes GG months to ban them. But the biggest problem is that they're allowed to cash out in crypto without any problem."
A little later, at the request of the official GG representative, Fernando added a list of nicknames:
– As asked, here are the nicknames from the bots currently playing, but then again, this doesn't really matter since the problem is GG letting then cashout, and at the moment I post their nicknames here they will probably cashout most of their money anyway and create new accounts:
Oltarian
Beska
vElazkes
QiNeLoKZ
Pilmengrad
Karlstad/KarIstad (not sure if its an I or L)
22Resilience
bittterSmoke
Nadezhda78
13Stramina13
Pianino744
Accounts that might be bots, but im not 100% sure:
GalizianStyle
Pachacutec4
HokenatLiar
AmenBrother95
"Without going into detail (as this investigation is ongoing), a number of these accounts have been blocked for a range of offences," a GG representative wrote. "As much as some of you may say (as you are entitled to) ‘this is your security teams job’, the fact remains that community reporting works. I want to thank the community for your service and support in these endeavors."
"That's great, but there are 2 important questions," a reader protested. "Why your security team doesn't detect these bots themselves? How is it possible players can do it (which is way harder now when mining was blocked) but your team that has access to all data, stats etc can't?"
"I can’t speak on the first question. However, I know that refunds do take place in lots of cases. Players get emailed individually when investigations are fully completed."
“Sorry bro, but this is not true,” FernandoCosta objected, “I personally played against at least 100 of these bots, i reported a really big number of then, i never receive a penny, so no, you guys are not giving any refund.”
"I know maybe 50 players who play on GG on an every day basis in these games with these players that you claim were blocked. I don't have a single example of someone getting a refund."
"Maybe you should follow up on that with security individually (I can’t do that for you, sorry). But, I do know it is true that refunds certainly have been applied in lots of cases."
In the same thread, screenshots of two alleged bots were posted:
– "They are the only players with positive redline on GG and have 8bb/100 (meanwhile reg winrate is -2bb/100 and the best human has 4bb)."
A month later, FernandoCosta updated the thread:
– Just an update for everyone, GG didn't do anything about the bots, didn't adopt any of the tips I sent then, at least 1/3 of the bots I reported are still playing, and there are many new accounts, all playing the same way like the most obvious bots ever. I feel like online poker will die soon, and I still don't know why GGPoker doesn't just ban the bots. I don't understand why they need the bots running.
