In May, Xuan Liu pulled off the most captivating hit-and-run in high roller history: she flew to Triton for the first time, immediately won the $25,000 tournament, and then, satisfied, headed home to Toronto.
Over the summer, Xuan went on a podcast with Jungleman, and it turned out to be a productive and frank conversation.
— Today I've got the first woman winner of a Triton High Roller Series event for $860,000, the WPT Slam at Triton Montenegro, very recently. She's also a high-stakes woman player, plays $100/$200 plus—big money.
We played together and battled a little bit on Poker Night in America. She was four-betting me. She's getting in the streets playing some street poker, hero calling, almost hero calling me, randomizing the fold—so she says.
All right, Xuan, how does it feel to win, to be the first woman Triton High Roller champ? Are you the first woman to win a high roller tournament, period, or is that just for Triton?
— That's a good question. No, I don't think so. I mean, I think Cherish Andrews just won a high roller in Florida that was also a 25K.
— Yes, exactly. But Triton is a whole other story. It's top-reg vs. top-reg, so playing those tournaments is almost irrational, in my opinion. And you actually came and won—I think that's a truly unique achievement.
— And again, I disagree. Kristen Foxen performs well everywhere, including at the PGT—there are also difficult lineups there.
— Yes, Kristen is pulling it off.
— There are more strong women than you think, Dan!
— Okay, so what place would you put yourself in on the women's list?
— This year, I've only played like 10 tournaments. My volume is just not there for tournaments. I love it and I try to squeeze it in between my cash game sessions, but it's just not a top priority.
— But I mean, there's definitely not that many female high-stakes cash game players. Or many high-stakes successful cash game players, period, actually. So that makes you a contender, in my opinion.
— I think you'd be surprised at how many talented female players there are currently who also play cash games. They're just scattered all over the world.
I know a bunch off the top of my head who are Chinese, but you don't hear about them because they don't speak the language. They're not doing content. Saya Ono. Saya has done very, very well. She mostly plays PLO now, but I actually just did a podcast with her recently, and she's an absolute crusher.
And many don't speak English and don't create content for YouTube—but that doesn't mean they're not cool.
— Okay, okay, you've convinced me! But winning the Triton tournament is still awesome.
— No, it was definitely tough. But I got lucky when I needed to. That's how tournaments work. Ninety-nine percent of the time, you're not going to be happy, and this one time, you just get really lucky and good things happen.
I was just in the right spot at the right time, and I was prepared enough to take it down.
— You're modest, that's very sweet!
In general, what is it that's preventing a lot of women from having the success that you seem to believe they can have? You're an advocate for women in poker on the whole, and you're helping many of them.
— Yeah, that's a great question, and yes, there are. I think experience and confidence are huge barriers. If you look at the high-stakes cash game or high-stakes tournament scene, it's very cliquey. There are guys who run in groups. They all sell action to each other. That just doesn't exist in the female community. You need to have people with really deep pockets to believe in you to get to that level.
I mean, what are really the ROIs of these players playing Tritons? They're not that high. They need hundreds of millions of dollars to afford to play. The reality is women as a demographic just don't have as much money as guys. And it's harder for them to find no-strings-attached staking, I would say.
— Yeah, I've heard that complaint before a lot. Some girls told me that many guys aren’t in it just for actual support—they’ve got some ulterior motive related to sexual attraction. I could see that being quite a problem, especially once money starts getting involved.
— So much of the skill of playing high rollers is your ability to sell and market yourself to the right people and have them like you. Of course, you have to be talented, but that's a huge chunk of what it takes to run in those circles.
— Especially as I was coming up, my claim to being able to sell into these things was just online results. The cool thing about online is, if you can succeed there, you can probably succeed in real life. So theoretically, people could play a bunch of tournaments and win online, and eventually grind up a roll or get some backing for 25Ks.
— Yes, absolutely. That's exactly what I did to break into live MTTs. Back when I was on Two Plus Two and didn’t have a lot of confidence—I was only beating like $1/2$ and $2/$5 cash games and had okay results in online MTTs—I was able to post my graphs from Full Tilt and Stars and sell action into the 5Ks and 10K EPTs. That’s actually how I got my first good break. I highly recommend that route.
But I was also supported by other women, like Melanie Weisner. She was one of the first women to buy my action when I was selling into 5Ks. She was an FTP pro at the time, and I’ll always be grateful to her for that.
So I try to pay it forward. I almost never say no when a woman asks me to buy action, as long as it’s zero markup or a very reasonable markup.
And I've been playing around with PokerStake, the company Josh Arieh runs. I think they're doing something cool by featuring women on the page.
— Let's talk about how high you actually play. Is it $100/$200 cash games? Do you want to throw out something? You must have made some serious money from these cash games.
— I made decent money.
— Ha-ha, what does that mean?
— You're accustomed to the high-stakes poker scene. If you saw the games I was getting into and the stakes I was playing and I told you the amount, you’d be like, “Oh yeah, that’s reasonable.” You wouldn’t be like, “Oh my god, she’s absolutely crushing.”
The fact is, I can’t put in a lot of volume because the games I play in don’t run all the time, and even when they do, I don’t always have a seat. So it’s a lot of sitting around and getting caught up doing other things in the meantime.
— Wow.
— Do I consider myself a pro? Sure, by some standards. I don’t think I study and grind. I don’t play every day or every week even.
— Club WPT thinks you’re a pro.
— Well, I’m no longer with WPT.
— Oh, excuse me. Excuse me. My mistake. Maybe things have changed. I guess you’re not a pro as of last month or officially?
— I mean, if you look at their roster, they’re not really interested in signing pros. They’re interested in catering to a more amateur demographic, and so they have content creators on the roster now.
— Oh, okay. Are you not a content creator?
— I try. It’s not my forte, but I’m really trying.
— Okay. Well, anyway, let’s get back to the point. Just to make this real simple: suppose you’re a woman, trying to make it in poker, trying to figure out what to do. What are the realistic routes to success?
One appears to be to prove yourself online. Not exactly easy to do. You have to be damn good to prove yourself online. Congrats, by the way. We’ve got the real deal here.
— Then it’s really tough. I don’t think you can be—because honestly that’s where you get all the reps in. It would take so many more years and sessions to become good enough live, whereas you could just expedite things online.
— What about the option of being a bit more of a content creator and somehow finding your way into sponsorship? Do you really have to be that good to do that? Is it not realistic? Because I would think the sites are looking for more women to sponsor.
— You’d be surprised.
Ambassadors are getting paid a decent amount these days, but there’s just not a lot of them that can meet the requirements the sites are looking for. Unless you’re a Rampage or Wolfgang or Brad Owen—like top-of-the-top creators—there’s just not really that much space for you. These sites are already doing fine. You’re probably not going to bring in the equivalent value that they’re paying you, to be completely honest. You really have to offer something unique.
— Well, part of the unique thing is that you're from a unique demographic, more or less. That’s what I’m saying.
— Sure. No, I agree. I have thoughts toward that. Obviously, I think me personally, I’m positioned very well. But when I was with WPT—I love them—but it was a lot about code-shilling and what I could bring to their bottom line, which I was always a little bit uncomfortable with.
— Right. I think what you’re suggesting is—and I don’t want to spend too much time on this—but the business model of how they pay people. You’re suggesting that they pay people a lot based off what they return via whoever clicks on their code and signs up.
— I mean, every site is different, and the business model for the site is going to be different depending on where the site currently is and how established they are. For an up-and-coming site where they are focused on first-time depositors, that might make more sense than for an already very established reputable company that wants to secure themselves as the paramount name in the space.
— Yeah, I mean, that’s true, and business is complicated.
I would just think that there are some small deals that some women are given—maybe for some site or to appear on a stream or that kind of thing—or at least opportunities to play on streams. Which, let’s be honest, the stream games are not that tough.
Unless you thought Poker Night in America was tough.
-- Oh god, that's still haunting me.
— Speaking of going to different places, you were working the Arctic series, the Yukon series, the Eskimo series, or whatever it was. I didn’t know anyone was working that one.
Why don’t you tell us about that?
— That challenge was an idea I had when I started getting inspiration from people like Mr. Beast and Michelle Khare, who do all of these extravagant challenges. I was starting off on the YouTube thing, at least in that style, and I was thinking of cool things I could do that relate to poker and also fit with what my sponsor would want, which is to play poker in Canada. That is my community.
Being a first-generation immigrant, Canada holds a very special place in my heart for me and my family. It’s a country that provided us with a more secure and safe livelihood. I’m only really here today because of this amazing country.
— So, you're kind of Canadian after all.
— Yes, but I'm also very Chinese.
I realized I’ve been to all these places in the world, but I haven’t been to places that are relatively close to home. People also don’t realize how big Canada is. You might think it’s a cool challenge, but it was freaking hard.
— Like how hard?
— I only had $1,000 live and $1,000 online. All of my expenses—including flights, hotels, and food—had to come out of that bankroll. So if I spent $500 on a flight, I would just have $1,500 to work with.
— How do you do that? How do you make that work?
— I struggled a lot.
— I want to explore where in Canada you went. You did the Iditarod or whatever? Hopefully, the dog sleds?
— Dog sleds cost money, and I was on a budget. But it was a challenge, a fun content thing for me. A lot of up-and-coming poker players do kind of live like that—session to session—wondering whether they can pay their bills. It took me back to the roots of why I love the game and got into it in the first place.
It was after a time when I was running kind of bad and a little burnt out. I was trying to fall in love with the game again, and the challenge helped me do that.
Basically, the longer I stayed in one place, the more hotel nights I’d have to spend money on. So I tried to do the thing as quickly as possible.
— So how did you make this work? How did you make this work with $1,500? The flight’s $500...
— I finished—I think it was like 10 out of the 13 provinces and territories.
I was down to my last $300 when I was in the Yukon. I even told the host, “Hey, this is all the money I have on me. Do you think you could spot me?” Because I had a bit more of my bankroll online.
But that session, the guys just kept wanting to play PLO double board bomb pot. I ended up making like $4,000 at one-two.
— To be fair, people are very bad at bomb pot. I mean, if the rake’s high, it’s questionable whether it’s beatable. I want people not to charge high rake at weird games, because, how do you even determine what the rake should be?
— Wow. Okay. There must be some big edges.
— Actually, I even read, by the way, that you were in Atlantic City and you were sleeping on the floor. Is that right?
— Oh, like ages ago when I was first starting out in poker.
— How do you get out of that?
— Banked some tournament scores for, you know, 500k twice in a year.
Xuan was doing well at the PokerStars series in the early 2010s.
— And I thought you were spinning in cash.
— I played cash games too. But tournaments, of course, allow you to take off very quickly.
— If you get there.
— I don't know if you read this, but my mom gave me an ultimatum that I could travel the world and play poker for a year, but after that year, I would have to settle down and find a real job.
— And your mother accepted your poker career?
— But the year went so well that she was like, "Fine, you can do this a little longer." Because a few years later, I took her to Sanya where there was a WPT at the time. So that's the twist. Like, I'm not going to do this, Mom, but I'll take you to Sanya, right?
And then she saw my face on a billboard...
— Gorgeous. "Mom, look, I'm a star!"
— Well, I didn’t even know they were going to have me up there. And then I was surprised too.
— Oh, I was trying to pretend like you’re a genius mastermind unraveling her plan. But okay, if you want to play the humble card, maybe you’re next level and don’t want people to realize that.
— Yeah, my trajectory in poker has kind of been all over the place.
My edge isn’t coming from squeezing in an extra big blind versus some reg. It comes from being in a spot where someone who saw me on YouTube just stacks off for a thousand big blinds with ace queen versus my aces or something.
— I had someone on here who basically determined you cannot really make a living doing 1ks unless you find a way to really curtail the expenses.
— Yeah. Expenses are really brutal for the poker player, for the average tournament grinder. And yeah, like you said, when I was starting out, even though I was playing some 5k and 10k EPTs, I was often sharing rooms or sleeping on couches for next to nothing. Sometimes just nothing.
And this is another reason why it's so much harder for women to break through, because not every girl is going to be comfortable with that. Like I said, I literally slept on the floor at PCA when I banked for fourth place and won half a million dollars.
So it can be a struggle. I know how lucky I got, and I understand the survivor bias I definitely have. If just one or two tournaments did not go well, I probably wouldn't be here. I’d be working at some bank somewhere doing something really boring.
— Well, how do you negate the expenses? Other than sleeping on the floor, which is not particularly ideal...
— Yeah, exactly. And this is another reason why community is so important. The larger the pool you can draw from to share expenses, the more likely you are to have a better cushion to succeed.
— Well, what else are you focusing on if it’s not poker? Is it money-related? Is it more travel?
— I would say my focus is still poker right now. I'm definitely not dating, so what else do I have these days?
Was burnt out and didn’t love poker for a few years, but now I really love poker and I can’t wait to play — for the most part. Not like I’d play any game, but I’m excited and I look forward to learning more about the game and seeing how far I can go with it.
That’s just kind of what’s preoccupying my mind. I'm also excited about the content stuff. I'm growing my Instagram and YouTube — not every day because my schedule is so sporadic and it’s hard to follow a specific routine, but these are the things I look forward to doing. Building my brand, inspiring other people, and empowering myself and others to do what they want.
I think I have a cool story. I think I've come a long way. So yeah. I just want to see how far that can take me.
I don't have an ego about these things. Maybe poker is just not supposed to be mainstream ever, but I think it would be cool if more people learned about the game and my journey.
— What was it that changed that got you excited about it? Your success? Something in the game you've discovered?
— Probably gaining more confidence.
The money is nice. Financial freedom has always been a priority for me. My family grew up very poor, first generation. We didn’t have connections. I had to figure everything out for myself. I made a lot of mistakes. It was one step forward, two steps back on many days.
I feel like I’ve reached an age and a point in my career and life where I just want to show other people that it’s not always rainbows and butterflies on this journey, and that’s okay.
— What is the kind of content you're making? Can you give some examples?
— Yeah, I mean, you saw some of it. The Canada journey is something cool that I thought to do. I would love to do something like that again.
But it's harder. These gray markets — you don't want to promote it so much that it draws attention and makes a bad scene for everybody.
The problem is, when I first got started in poker, being able to travel and go to all these cool places was definitely one of my main drivers. But now I'm a little older. I really like my own bed. I love hanging out with my dog, just laying alone, playing video games, going to play poker once or twice a week.
— I thought, by the way, you were engaged when it came to dating. Is that not the case?
— I was previously married. I'm no longer in the market at all, essentially.
— You just don't care?
— I wouldn't say I don't care. I would love to meet someone great. I just kind of expect them to miraculously show up in one of my circles, or knock on my door somehow. And I know that's not realistic, because everybody I talk to says it has to be kind of intentional if you want to meet someone.
Although my past few relationships — none of it has been really intentional. I'm just so accustomed to befriending someone, building some sort of bond, and falling into this nesting dynamic, which is what I prefer.
— I have my own thoughts. I would think being intentional is the way to go for meeting someone. But yeah, I would think there aren't guys who are intentional in poker or anything like that.
— The poker guys are shy. I'm also shy. And the kinds of guys I like are mostly not guys who would hit on someone like me. So it's a problem.
It's not that I don't care. Like I said, I've been divorced. That relationship was good at times, but it was all sorts of messed up. And I'm good by myself. My life is very happy, and I'm very goal-driven.
But for women it's also a little different, because even when guys are in relationships, you're expected to keep working and focus on your regular stuff.
But for women, we have this natural disposition to want to give a bit more. We're more concerned with how your day is, and being more accommodating. And I would argue that's also a reason why women don’t excel as much in industries where you need to be very obsessive and one-track-minded to succeed.
— Do you think there are other reasons that women aren't really in poker, and can they be removed? Or do you think it’s always going to be a small percent?
— I think the proportion of females to males in the industry can be improved heavily. I don’t think it’ll ever reach parity. I think, naturally, women are just drawn to other things. But there’s plenty of opportunity in poker. And once women see that you don’t need to be really, really good at this thing to put your money on the line and make a decent living. I'm not saying they have to be professional players, but just to try out the game and hone their critical thinking or risk management skills. I think poker is still an incredible tool for those things, like a training tool, a sport, or that sort of thing.
You don't necessarily have to see it as a training tool. Like, lots of people play golf, for example, and most of them suck. Sometimes you just want to be out there in the sun, touch some grass, and shoot the breeze with your friends.
And I see poker as just that. Sure, like golf, it can be expensive. But if you just see it as a pastime and a gateway to hone your skills and meet interesting people, I think there's a huge untapped market for women and a lot of emerging markets by the game.
— Well said, let's leave it at that for today! Xuan Liu, ladies and gentlemen, is one of the strongest women in the poker world.
